As The Leader Grows with Ken Joslin

Rebecca Zung | Mastering the Art of Dealing with Narcissists

• Ken Joslin

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Ever felt like you're stuck in a toxic relationship, be it business or personal? Feel drained and belittled by someone who seems to thrive on your discomfort? You might just be dealing with a narcissist. This week, we're joined by the remarkable Rebecca Zung, a top-notch negotiation expert and attorney, who transformed her flourishing career in divorce litigation into a mission to help individuals navigate this exact situation. Her insights, born out of harrowing personal experiences with narcissistic business partners, are not only enlightening but also empowering.

Rebecca takes us through the red flags that signal you're dealing with a covert narcissist and shares her journey from being a ‘supply’ to a source of inspiration for those grappling with similar experiences. As she delves into her successful negotiation practice and her rapidly growing YouTube channel, she offers practical strategies on disarming a narcissist. Get ready to learn about the 'fight or flight' mode that triggers a 'narcissistic injury', how it shapes a narcissist's actions, and effective ways to create boundaries. Let Rebecca's story remind you that perfection isn't always necessary - it's about trusting your heart and instincts. Strap in for a rollercoaster of a conversation that promises to equip you with the tools to deal with narcissistic behavior.

Welcome to the ATLG podcast I am your host Ken Joslin, former pastor turned coach & host of CREATE, the #1 Faith-based Entrepreneur conference in America. My mission is to help faith-based entrepreneurs become the best version of themselves by growing in our Core 5: Faith, Health, Relationships, Business & Finances. You can get more information as well as join our FREE Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/676347099851525

Speaker 1:

Good morning guys. Welcome to another episode of as the leader grows podcast. I am your host, ken Johnson man. I've got a super duper special treat. I've got my good friend Rebecca Zung with me today a narcissist, negotiation expert, attorney, youtube sensation. We're sitting here chatting off air and I'm like stop talking, stop talking, stop talking, because everything you're sharing I want our audience to be here. Guys, listen, there are very few people I can hang around. Some amazing people. There are very few people that I get to spend time with. When I watch them do what they do, I'm like they are right where God has them. They're doing exactly what they were created to do. Rebecca, you're one of those people, girl. How are you doing this morning?

Speaker 2:

I'm doing great. I spend a crazy week with such a good week. I always say I used to hate 90% of my day and now I love 90% of my day. Even though I had a very, very successful career as a high net worth divorce litigation attorney, I still like it was such a drag doing being with people who are unhappy all day long and working. I always say I was a bitch for 12 hours a day. That's what I used to do. I was a very high paid bitch.

Speaker 1:

So let's stop. So we're going to get into your book, we're going to get into all the stuff you're doing now. What was the switch? What was the switch from bitch to not being a bitch? You said you hated 90% of your day. Now you love it. What was the moment? What was the transformation?

Speaker 2:

Well, it wasn't like on and off switch, but basically during COVID I started on YouTube talking about my experience with a business partner who happened to be a covert narcissist. We moved out to LA a few years ago and because I wanted to make a change into doing more entrepreneurial things, In one of those entrepreneurial endeavors I ended up with a narcissistic business partner who was a covert narcissist, a female. This was after I had had a very, very highly successful career as an attorney. I tell people that I've been named best lawyer in America by US News. I was AV rated by Martindale Hubbell. I'm 10 out of 10. I'm a lawyer All of these things as an attorney. I tell people that because narcissists don't attach themselves to you because you have so little value, they attach themselves to you because you have so much. They have the ability to make you feel like nothing within a few months.

Speaker 1:

So when you say that when you got in business, obviously you're a badass when it comes to being an attorney. You're one of the top litigating, the worst attorneys in the country but when you got in business with this individual, what were some of the signs that you saw that were happening? And what are some of the things our audience can look for to know when they're dealing with someone, whether it be a partner, whether it be a partner in life, whether it be a business partner, whether it be a friend relationship, whatever that looks like what are some things that they can look for to know? Ah, I'm dealing with a narcissist.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So they start off very, very charming. All of them do. All of them come on very strongly, very, very charming, and one of the things that they do is they use mirror neurons to actually mirror you, to become exactly what you want them to be. So they come on very, very strongly at the beginning and it's oh my gosh, the stars have aligned.

Speaker 2:

And where have you been all my life? And, whether it's professional or personal, by the way, I've got everything you need to be exactly the person that you've never seen before, and they make you feel like you are the most amazing, incredible thing that they've ever come across. And it's so strong. It's 100 emails a day, 100 texts a day. And it was the same thing with this particular business partner. I had already started something and this person came along was like listen, if you make me a partner, I can bring in all of this. I've got all these contacts, I've got all these skills. I can make it so much better for you, make me a partner in this thing, put my name on it and it wasn't really something I wanted to do, but she just came on so strongly and was so charming that I went against my own guts, you got told you know and you still did it.

Speaker 2:

And I did it, and I wish I would never do it again, by the way, but I went ahead and did it and then, within almost right away and this is what they do they lock you in. They lock you in and then, almost right away, you start to see red flags, you know in my case, what were some of the first red flags you saw?

Speaker 1:

There are going to really be other people can look for.

Speaker 2:

So you know, in my case it was a covert narcissist. So covert narcissists aren't, you know, overt narcissists are the ones that you think of that I call the garden variety narcissists. They go around telling everybody how great they are. You know, they demand the best tables in the restaurant. You know, they are much more boasting, bragging. You know, I kind of only ever thought narcissists were that kind of a narcissist.

Speaker 2:

A passive, aggressive, covert narcissist tends to be, you know, under the radar. Everybody thinks they're wonderful, everybody thinks they're great, but they do more passive, aggressive things. So it was yeah, I will take care of these things for the business. I'll write the business plan, I'll do this, I'll do that, and then they're not doing them, you know, and so you end up sort of having to go after them, but they're still not doing it. And then all of a sudden it's, you know, inadvertently, leaving your name off of emails. And then they're, you know, meeting with people and oh, I thought I put your name on that email. Oh, how did that happen? Oh, you know, and it's sort of this plausible deniability. Oh, I, how did I? I didn't mean that, you know, and they, they, they feign innocence, they feign naivete, right, but it's very passive, aggressive, very passive, aggressive and and those are the sort of things that they start to do and and they just kind of make you feel less than in this sort of passive, aggressive way.

Speaker 1:

So what were some of the things? What were some of the things? When you saw those things happening, rebecca, what were some of the things that you started to like, internalize and like, okay, this isn't, this isn't right, something's wrong. What did you do to kind of bring change about or really to point out hey, this behavior is not. This behavior is not normal.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, where it started to get from me was like the money, you know, like you know, there were situations where you know she would like I had to put money in my bank account because I didn't know how to run the transaction, to put it in the joint, the business bank account.

Speaker 2:

And I have to talk to my accountant to figure out how to put it back into the business account and I'd be like that really doesn't make any sense. It would have just as easily gone into the business account, you know. And then two months later you know why still has it still not gone into the business account. You know things like that and you know. So that's where it really started to like get, where I knew things were not good. That was not right for me.

Speaker 1:

If you had to do like that specific thing right there when you're seeing these red flags, if Rebecca Zung could do that all over again, what would you have done different than you did?

Speaker 2:

I would have gotten out of it way sooner, way sooner. But you know I felt like, oh, a lot of other people, we had mutual friends, other people. You know I didn't want to make a ripple effect, I didn't want to upset Apple carts, and so I let things go on a lot longer than I should have. But you know, in hindsight I should have just cut it off as soon as I saw that there was an issue.

Speaker 1:

Wow. And so you're walking through all of these different relationships and things in your life.

Speaker 2:

You're learning what narcissists are, what to look for, what the red flags are Well, especially because I was the supply, I was the name brand, I was the one who was bringing in the business, I was the one that you know. The person was attached to Right.

Speaker 1:

So what was the moment in your life when you went I want to help other people identify narcissistic behavior in relationships and I'm going to start a YouTube channel, because your YouTube channel literally went viral almost from day one. What was the? What caused you to want to be able to do that Like go from being this high profile divorce attorney one of the best in the country to you know what? I'm really going to change my life mission into helping people deal with narcissistic behavior in the relationships.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, it wasn't really a decision. It kind of almost found me in some ways and it was sort of this confluence of events because, honestly, I had been speaking on negotiation in general for like 20 years. That's sort of how I built my practice, because nobody really wanted to hear about divorce, you know. So I built this talk on negotiation and so I always say that I've spoken on negotiation to every rotary, from Sarasota down to Marco Island, to every you know women's group, you know every Hadassah, you know, you name it. I've spoken on it. Because that's how I built my practice right. And so all the way to, I ended up being the keynote speaker on negotiation to the American Bar Association.

Speaker 2:

So long before I was a YouTuber. That was really kind of my thing. And I actually wrote a book Negotiate Like you Matter. Robert Shapiro wrote the foreword for that, and then that's kind of all been eclipsed by this whole narcissism thing actually. But what happened was I started learning about YouTube and kind of figuring out. I thought, and I was learning about funnels, I started following Russell Brunson and I thought what I was gonna do is actually build courses around negotiation in general, and my first videos were on, if you look back early on in, like the fall of 2019, I have these videos on how to get a pay raise, clothing color, psychology in negotiation, and I always joke that the only people that we're watching were my mom and her church friends. It was like I would get like 30 views. My mom would be like I have all my church friends.

Speaker 1:

Let me stop you right there. I want you to speak to one thing really quick before we go forward. A lot of people don't start. Whatever it is they feel like they're going to do, whatever impact, whatever voice, they have to be able to speak into the world, whatever it is, they don't start because it's not perfect or it's not good enough. When you, I see your facial expression, your account changes when you talk about those first videos, because you're like same thing with me the first time I got in front of an audience. It was terrible, terrible, and it took time to speak to that. Rebecca, speak to just go with what you have in your heart.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I just got on YouTube and I felt so awkward. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I'm like, okay, I'm going to turn on my camera and I'm going to get on here and I'm talking to this thing. I'm sitting in this room by myself. It seems so stupid.

Speaker 2:

But you know, I'm going to just do this thing and you know, I really didn't know what I was doing and but I thought, well, you know what, I'm going to give it a shot, because I knew that YouTube is the second largest search engine in the world, owned by the first largest search engine in the world, which is Google. And so I knew that that was going to be the way to lead to these funnels. And I was learning about how to build funnels and how to do landing pages and how to you know the whole thing. And so I knew that I wanted to learn the SEO algorithm of YouTube, and so I started you know, talking about negotiation, and I was teaching myself how to use keywords everywhere, how to do TubeBuddy, the whole thing. And you know some half Chinese and half German. So I was joking, I have no fun genes whatsoever, it's like.

Speaker 1:

I'm learning this. I've hung out with you before. You do have some fun genes.

Speaker 2:

I'm like I'm learning this stuff. So that's what I did. And so then, in January of 2020, I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist, and if you look at that first one, it had this massive hit. It was like 800 views or something and I thought, okay, that's the thing.

Speaker 2:

So I built a course on that, called SLA your negotiation with a narcissist which stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you and I actually got the intellectual property on the word SLA by the way, I own that word and I thought, okay, I'm gonna go live with that course on March 11th of 2020. I had no idea what was gonna happen in the world nothing and I thought I'm gonna do like eight more videos on that. It was an experiment. It was literally an experiment, and I had 300 subscribers on YouTube in March, in sorry, in January of 2020, literally 300. I had nothing, zero. And I went live March 11th of 2020 with a webinar called the three must have secrets to communicating with a narcissist, which is the same Evergreen webinar that I use today and that's how I started, and that course has made me millions, literally millions, and I still use that webinar. That Evergreen webinar makes me over seven figures a year now.

Speaker 1:

So what was it? When you did that and you started to see because I know you didn't do it just for the financial gain, you really did because you wanted to make a difference, you wanted to help people.

Speaker 2:

That course to me. I see it as a service. It is a $500 course that tells people how to organize their documentation for their lawyer. It gives them questions for vetting lawyers. It shows them how to go find a lawyer. It includes a five page packet to give to their lawyers so that the lawyers don't spin their wheels in dealing with high conflict, narcissistic people. It is literally. It's less than one hour of an attorney's time. It is built by me. It shows them how to document, how to create leverage. It has more than 40 examples of leverage. It saves them money. To me, it is a service in the world, seriously.

Speaker 1:

I believe that, with all of my heart, the one thing I love about you is I love your heart. You can come across as that divorce attorney sometimes, but just being able to get time with you and watching you and listening to you and hearing your heart that you have for the people, how surprised were you that it took off the way that it took off.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I sit here today it's like just over three years later and I have 40 million views on YouTube and I have about close to 400,000 subscribers, and I just launched my master high conflict negotiation certification training this week. I didn't even put it out on my social media, I only put it to my list. I have 200,000 on my email list and I have about 120,000 in my Facebook group and I have, you know, hundreds of calls booked with my sales team and you know I have the best team seriously on the planet. I love my team. I cannot tell you how much my COO is. Td Jakes is COO for four years and he is the best. I cannot tell you I'm so grateful for the people that I attract into my life. I have the best friends.

Speaker 1:

I have. I was going to tell you there's a reason you're attracting those people. I remember you and I had a conversation at my create conference back in January about, about hiring your COO, and just you had just you had just made that hire.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you just started at that point.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah you just made that hire and just to listen to you and watch you and see your count and it's changed. When you talk about your team versus dealing with the arsonist, your whole counting is completely changed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I have a lot of the same close friends and Amberley is one of my best friends.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Catherine Gordon, just text me she goes. Oh, I see you're going live with her back up.

Speaker 2:

Oh, Catherine is one of my dearest and nearest. She's one of my best friends too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, her endowment will be with us in create a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2:

Yes, they're both one of my, two of my best friends.

Speaker 1:

Yeah they're fantastic. Talk about your book. Yes, you've got a book out. You've got a copy of it right there.

Speaker 2:

No, Will, it's not. I don't have a physical copy of it.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you don't have them yet.

Speaker 2:

No, no, but a lot of great things are happening with that, with that book, and a lot of great PR is going to be happening with it. So it's called Slay the Bully how to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win. Chris Voss wrote the foreword for it and it is, you know, the Bible for how to negotiate with a narcissist. You know, one of the things that I learned in my research is that narcissists actually don't think like regular, reasonable people. Something happened to narcissists during their childhood, and so what happens is that, you know, for all of us, actually, when we're faced with trauma or potential trauma, we go into fight or flight mode right, and when that happens, our brains emit chemicals, our brains emit hormones, adrenaline, cortisol, things like that. We get prepared to fight or flee, fight or flight right. And when that happens to children, the same thing happens right, fight or flight. But when that happens continuously, it causes an arrested development, it causes damage to the brain, it causes damage to the limbic system, part of the brain, and so, while the rest of the brain in children continues to develop, that limbic system part of the brain, that emotional center of the brain, does not, and it causes something that we call narcissistic injury.

Speaker 2:

And so when narcissists are presented with stimuli in their environment that causes them to feel like they need to go back into survival mode whether we think it's rational or reasonable or not then that narcissistic injury gets triggered, and sometimes they don't even necessarily even remember what they have done during that period of time. Sometimes it even causes something that is narcissistic rage, and they're not rational or reasonable during that period of time. They're not, and sometimes they even will take themselves down to take you down, and so we cannot negotiate with people like that in the same way that we negotiate with somebody who's rational or reasonable, because they're not looking for a rational end. You know we think well, of course they want to save attorneys fees. Of course they want to get to something that's reasonable. Of course they're looking for an end. That's not true. They're also looking to manipulate you. They're also looking to see you squirm. They're also looking to just play the game. That's why they continue to move goalposts.

Speaker 1:

So it's one of the things you see in narcissistic behavior people that have victim mentality. Is that something that's prevalent in that? Does that victim mentality come from the same place? Yeah, you were talking about that trauma?

Speaker 2:

Sure, absolutely, of course.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then so if you're in a relationship with somebody like what you just defined let's take it that you're in a partnership, You're married or you're involved in a partnership or relationship with somebody else a romantic relationship You're in a relationship like that. What's some of the first things you should do?

Speaker 2:

Well, the way I say it is, you have to take it in baby steps, right? Because for some people it's just too overwhelming to. You know, people go well, you just have to leave, you have to get out. And for some people they just feel paralyzed, they feel, you know, hopeless sometimes, or they feel like the other person just will always win, or they always get their way, or there's going to be backlash or whatever, and they just feel like I can't, you know, get past all of that. So I always say you know, if you want to completely turn this around, you want to course correct that, think of it in three steps. So I say step one don't run. Step two make a U turn. Step three break free. So for that step one, don't run.

Speaker 2:

You create boundaries and that first boundary may not even be a physical boundary sometimes. Sometimes that first boundary might be just a verbal boundary, it might just be. I am going to decide today that you're going to speak to me with respect and that's going to be my boundary going forward. You know, and sometimes you know, one of the ways that you can come at it is, instead of going back at the person with anger, you can disarm a narcissist by saying things like come at them with almost like naive bewilderment. You know, like I don't understand, you know? Can you clarify what you're saying? Can you tell me more about that? Or what you're saying is this I think what I'm hearing you say is that you know something like that, because it just makes them sort of. You know, explain?

Speaker 2:

And it also helps you not be so angry, right.

Speaker 1:

Is there a way, when you're sharing that with somebody like that, rebecca, to where the narcissist may have that aha moment, because I know you mentioned, they don't sometimes even realize what they're doing because of past trauma. Is there a certain way you can communicate that kind of helps them have that aha moment and kind of break free from oh wow, I can't believe I'm acting this way?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I don't know that they're ever going to have an aha moment of geez, I'm an asshole, or whatever, but they might have an aha moment of just being stunned for a moment and realizing.

Speaker 2:

you know what, maybe I need to just be disarmed here for a second. You know, and you just always have the right to just say you know this approach is not working for me and you know we can resume this conversation at another time. You know, you just always have that right to draw that boundary, you know, and the other thing that I suggest that people do sometimes is just start to pretend like you're reporting the news and start looking at the person almost as an observer, almost as a third party. You know, I can see that you're angry.

Speaker 2:

I can see that you're upset. You know we can resume this later. It almost take yourself out of the situation. So you know that would be a really good first step for people because, not to personalize it, you're almost sort of putting it back on the other person because remember that hurt people hurt people. Don't take it personally. You know if people feel good about themselves, they treat people well. If people don't feel good about themselves, they treat people poorly.

Speaker 1:

It has nothing to do with. So is that the reason most people stay in narcissistic relationships is because they just don't really believe themselves or see their own worth or value, so they just consistently let that person treat them?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I mean I think that there's definitely a lot of times trauma bonding going on. I mean, I think that you know there's a study out of Stanford by a guy named Robert Sapolsky who did this study on monkeys, and it was where these monkeys would receive a reward for doing something good and when they got this reward every single time and they knew when they were gonna be getting the reward it was nothing happened in their brain. But when they were gonna be getting this reward intermittently, then the dopamine levels in their brain for the anticipation would rise to the level of cocaine, so like if they didn't know when they were gonna be getting it. So it was like this physiological response.

Speaker 2:

And that's what happens with narcissists, because it's so hot and cold with them. Hot and cold, hot and cold, hot and cold. You know, it's so much this love bombing. You're the most amazing thing ever. And then they withhold, withhold that affection and they push, pull, push, pull. They push you all the way to the brink, you know. And then they pull you back. They pull you back to shower you again, and then you know it's that hot, cold and that's that. So there's almost a physiological addiction to them as well.

Speaker 1:

So you walk through the three responses that you said just a minute ago to a when you're dealing with a narcissist Cause. I love how you said you don't walk away.

Speaker 2:

Oh, the three, what I call my baby steps. Yeah, so I say step one to course correct. So the baby steps, what I say are step one don't run. Step two make that U-turn. Step three break free.

Speaker 2:

So, and then you know, I have, I have a little mini course that I give for $27 for people I call my power switch course, you know, for people with for that it's, you know, it's it's just which people can get it grabmypowercom if they want, but it's, it's just a little sort of baby steps, baby steps, baby steps, you know. So, step one don't run. Step two make a U-turn where they start to talk, where they start to present offers, where they start to, and it's all within the course of the slay methodology, strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you, you know where they start to. Okay, now I feel strong enough to do this part, now I feel strong enough to do that part, you know. And then, and then step three is finally, break free. Step three is finally, like, okay, I can see this person and they have no effect on me whatsoever. You know.

Speaker 1:

No, I love that One. Rebecca, tell me real quick. Book is coming out. When's your release date on the book?

Speaker 2:

October 3rd. So but if they go to slaythebullycom, they can actually get early access to the manuscript. They get access to my private launch team, they get a master class, they get a workbook, all kinds of really really super cool things. So slaythebullycom, that's where they go and they get, you know, early access to the whole manuscript now, so they don't have to wait till October 3rd so I'm excited for you there.

Speaker 1:

Best place to follow you and connect with you would be.

Speaker 2:

Well, youtube, of course we release, you know, brand new videos there every single day. Instagram at Rebecca's Zung, and of course you know I'm on TikTok, all that stuff too. But you know, those are probably the best places.

Speaker 1:

Well, listen, you are. You're when I again I said this earlier, we talked a little bit off air when I watch you do what you're doing every time, I'm like this this human is exactly where she's supposed to be and I just I love even when you talk about your team earlier. I love how your account has changed. I love how excited you got about your team and what you guys are doing to be able to make, to being able to make a difference. I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Yeah, I'm really really I love you know helping people. I really am excited about the impact that we're making on people's lives. I mean, you know the testimonials that we get every day, or you know that's our why.

Speaker 1:

I tell people all the time fulfillment. I don't care how many Z-Rows you have on your bank account, how many commas are in your bank account, when you have true, authentic fulfillment and you lay your head down on the pillow every night. There is absolutely nothing in the world like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the testimonials come in every single day and that's our why. Yeah, I love that, I love that Guys go check her out.

Speaker 1:

Go check her out. Rebecca Zung. Rebecca Zung on Instagram slaythebullycom Go check that out. We'll list all that stuff here in the show notes and, as always, thanks for joining us for another episode of as the Leader Grows. I am your host, ken Dossin.

Speaker 1:

Listen, we are a couple of weeks away from Create Conference in Dallas, texas. We're some of our good friends that we just talked about Randy Garn will be there, brennan Beshard will be there, katherine Gordon, john Gordon, earl McMannus. We're amazing, amazing people as we spend two and a half days walking through our core five faith, health, relationships, business and finances. Make sure, go visit Rebecca, follow her, hit her YouTube channel up. Guys, there is so much information for you. I don't care what relationship you're in, whether it be a romantic partnership, business relationship, friendship relationship. I mean, go check out what she's talking about, what help you identify really having the right people and the healthy people in your life. And, as always, this podcast has helped you. Hit, subscribe, share it, post it on Instagram tag. Rebecca and myself we'll share that with you. Give you a little love from our followers. Rebecca, thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so girl.