As The Leader Grows with Ken Joslin

Dr. Morgan Anderson | Insights on Attachment Styles and Emotional Health

• Ken Joslin

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Embarking on a journey to unravel the mysteries of human connections, I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with Dr. Morgan Anderson, a clinical psychologist whose expertise in attachment theory offers life-altering perspectives on relationships. Our heartfelt discussion traverses her personal trials, including a history of childhood trauma and a toxic dance with narcissism, to her inspiring triumph in reaching secure attachment. With a blend of vulnerability and wisdom, Dr. Anderson also takes us behind the scenes of her celebrated "Let's Get Vulnerable" podcast, a venture dedicated to empowering individuals toward healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

In the labyrinth of human emotions, it's our attachment styles—be it anxious, avoidant, or secure—that choreograph our relational dance. This episode peels back the complex layers of these styles, presenting not just theoretical insights but practical wisdom for those seeking to understand and improve how they connect with others. Reflecting on the rewarding journey of podcasting, I share how authentic expression and unwavering commitment can lead to unexpected joys, such as witnessing the transformative growth in others and even receiving a wedding invitation from a listener.

As we wrap up our conversation, the spotlight turns to the transformative power of self-improvement in pursuit of love and the essential need to foster emotional and relational health. Dr. Anderson's guidance shines brightly, pointing listeners toward a path of growth and connection. Whether single, dating, or deeply committed, her insights are a guidepost for anyone wanting to navigate the complexities of love with a secure compass. By nurturing the core facets of our lives—faith, health, business, relationships, and finances—we edge ever closer to becoming the best versions of ourselves, fulfilling not just our own potential but also the divine design for our lives.

FREE Attachment Style Quiz: https://quiz.tryinteract.com/#/5e77d82d29386e001428f8f1

Welcome to the ATLG podcast I am your host Ken Joslin, former pastor turned coach & host of CREATE, the #1 Faith-based Entrepreneur conference in America. My mission is to help faith-based entrepreneurs become the best version of themselves by growing in our Core 5: Faith, Health, Relationships, Business & Finances. You can get more information as well as join our FREE Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/676347099851525

If you enjoyed the podcast, come join our FREE GSD Community of hundreds of entrepreneurs & a ton of FREE Content including CREATE Conference recordings with Ken, John Maxwell, Gary Brecka, Ed Mylett & more. growstackdrive.com/free

Speaker 1:

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of as the Leader Grows podcast. I am like a kid in a freaking candy store right now, or a kid on Christmas morning waiting to run out and see my GI Joe and my football and all this stuff right, because I have got my good friend Dr Morgan Anderson, clinical psychologist, attachment theory expert, host of the let's Get Vulnerable podcast over 5 million downloads and she absolutely slayed my stage at Create this Year in Atlanta. I'm talking about attachment styles. Can we put this in the show notes? The little QR code thingy?

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, we'll get the quiz.

Speaker 1:

Oh, we got you. We're going to give you a quiz when we get through with this podcast. I don't care if you're single, if you're in a relationship or you're in a marriage. We're going to help you move forward in your relationship. Dr Morgan, how you doing, my friend?

Speaker 2:

Hey, I'm great. I'm so excited to be here with you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

Hey, tell everybody a little bit about I just hit the highlights Tell everybody a little bit about who you are, this passion about helping people understand what kind of attachment style they have and the different processes in moving towards being as we would call a secure attachment.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I am a clinical psychologist and I experienced a lot of childhood trauma and it really led me to this place of I need to figure out how to have a healthy relationship, and I was in a relationship with a narcissist and I really hit rock bottom at that moment of I cannot keep, I can't keep doing this right of being in these kinds of relationships that are hurting me. So that's when I dedicated my career to understanding attachment theory, to understanding how to have healthy relationships, and it changed everything for me. And then I started to help my clients as well and eventually I said, wow, I need to help as many people as possible understand their attachment style and then help them become securely attached, Because I know that, no matter what trauma you've experienced, what you've been through in your life, I know that you can become securely attached.

Speaker 1:

So out of this it's almost like ministry. It's like a calling for you. You're your burden to help people understand where they are with their attachment style and then how to get from where they are to being to having a secure attachment style so they can have a healthy relationship was birthed out of what you had to go through in order to help other people. Walk me through like the process of you, cause you said just a minute ago I was in a relationship with a narcissist. Well, I've done, obviously, in the last several years two and a half, three years I've had a few relationships, one long-term, and the long-term relationship I was in for about a year, year and a half, was with someone who was a narcissist and I didn't even realize it until afterwards, when you realized that and you realized why you were attracted to and stayed in that relationship. Walk me through that process.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people who are drawn to helping professions and helping others. We have so much empathy and we're so good at serving other people and being attuned to other people's needs and that can make us more susceptible to that kind of relationship. And ultimately I had so much fear of abandonment because I had lost my mom at a young age and had all kinds of other relational trauma I'd experienced. My fear of abandonment was just so strong that I would have done anything just to make a relationship work, no matter how painful it was. And for me it took a near death experience of going wow, I don't think I'm going to be alive if I stay in this relationship. It really took that to kind of shake myself and go you can't stay in this anymore, right, and then, and then I started. I started my healing journey and learning how to not have fear of abandonment, how to choose myself, how to heal my self-worth and start attracting healthy, emotionally available partners.

Speaker 1:

And what was the? Do you remember a time in that, in that season of your life, where you kind of had that man? I want to take what I've been through and I want to help people out of, or help or even help people circumvent what I went through in my in my past relationships.

Speaker 2:

I think for me it was when I started to experience healthy relationships for the first time. I remember having this thought I don't know if you've ever felt this way, ken, but I thought to myself where did all these great people come from? It's like they fell from the sky. Where have they been? I wasn't attracting them before. And then I started to have all these great healthy relationship experiences and I was enjoying dating. And it just hit me like wow, I've been through so much, I've had so much happen in my life and if I can do this and have healthy relationships and enjoy dating, then I can help anybody Like I, like no, nobody is too broken for this. So then it really did become that calling and the mission on my life to just help as many people as possible.

Speaker 1:

And so you're there and you're, you're a therapist, you're in La Jolla, California, you're living your dream life and then, all of a sudden, God puts in your heart to do a podcast which now has over five million downloads. Walk me through that process, because I know you had a lot of naysayers going no, you can't do it, it's illegal. You're a therapist Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you did. You went with your gut and went with what God put in your heart.

Speaker 2:

You're such a champion of people. I just I love your heart. You're like. I need you to just hype me up every morning, you know just call you up.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I was helping people and I was seeing about 30 clients a week and I just went this I just can't reach, you know, the people that I want to reach, how can I reach them? And, yeah, I had I told some colleagues about it who were also working kind of like next door and I got all excited and I was showing them my Instagram and all the things and they would say to me this is illegal. It's like this was there weren't a lot of psychologists on Instagram at this time? And they would say to me oh, you can't have an Instagram account, you're crazy.

Speaker 2:

And then I remember actually starting to make some money in my business, which was never something I expected, it just kind of happened as a byproduct. And I was telling somebody oh, I'm making this amount of money. And they said, oh my gosh, why would you ever want to make that much money? That's crazy. Why are you doing this? And I just thought they just don't get it, they don't get the bigger picture. You know, I want to be abundant and living my best life so that I can be an example for people, so that I can give to organizations and and really give, give back. So there have definitely been times where I've felt misunderstood and people haven't gotten it, but my clients and the transformations I've seen and just the way I've been able to help people it always keeps me going.

Speaker 1:

And so now, here you are, 5 million downloads later, like that's not a small number, that's insane. Like when I heard that the first time, I was like did you say 5 million downloads?

Speaker 2:

That's crazy. I don't even think about it and I think this is like all heart centered people. It's like we have to like actually remind ourselves of the things we've accomplished, because I don't even think about it. But then I'm like, oh wow, that that is a lot like it. It is significant. And I can tell you why it's that much. It's because every episode I say, how can I help people? I honestly, just I will ask God and I'll say what do people need to hear? How can I help them? And people get value out of it. And that's why it gets listened to. It's not that hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what would you say to somebody who's out there entrepreneurs, a lot of faith-based entrepreneurs listening to this podcast? What would you say to somebody who's out there today, Morgan, and they're wanting to take a step, they really feel like God's put something in their heart, but everybody around them is saying you can't do that. How are you going to do that? Why are you going to do that? What would you say to them today? How are you going to do that? Why are you going to do that?

Speaker 2:

What would you say to them today If it's on your heart, it's meant for you. If it is there and God placed it there, it is so meant for you. And guess what? The how is not your responsibility and it's certainly not their responsibility. The how is just going to happen as you start taking action. So really, just start taking messy forward action.

Speaker 1:

Okay, talk about that right there. Talk about because your podcast today, after 5 million downloads because I know mine it did not look like my podcast did a couple of years ago Walk, I mean talk about that about it's okay for it not to be perfect and understanding it's going to be messy when you start it.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, just putting the reps. I'll tell you honestly, I never listened to an episode. I didn't even look at the numbers. For my first year of podcasting, I never once looked at my numbers. I had the blinders on and it was just I'm just going to put in the reps. I'm just going to put in the reps, I'm just going to keep showing up. And I built that muscle of I'm going to do it regardless. So you have to be able to have a period where you're not really looking at outcomes and you're just building that muscle of doing, of showing up and then knowing that you know if you you reap what you sow, right. It's like eventually you're you're planting seeds and eventually it is going to come back to you, but being able to show up regardless and just not caring about the outcomes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I call it, if I would have cared about outcomes, I would have quit. I would have quit in the first three months. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's about the process, it's never about the journey or the destination, because the journey and the destination and you said something earlier. You said you talked about how you've attracted different people and I think because our heart we have our hearts are very similar in that we just love to serve people, we love to help people walk through transformation and seeing that that fulfillment in our lives is you, just, it can't be touched by anything, not a comma or a zero in our bank account or there's nothing that touches that level of fulfillment when you know you've helped somebody transform their lives For you. In in this process, for the, for the transformation and you just spoke to a lot of the entrepreneurs on just go ahead and do it In the podcast specifically, before we jump into Attachment Styles, what's been one of the most fulfilling parts of the podcast for you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I have met so many people, so many amazing people. I'm going to a wedding this summer of somebody who I was on her podcast and now we're friends. So I think that the relationships formed from having conversations really, really powerful.

Speaker 2:

And then the other thing that I do on my show which, for all the entrepreneurs out there, this is a great way to get leads to your business, okay, so listen up is I interview my clients. I interview my clients and I love having them on my show and, I kid you not, they'll be talking about their transformation and I get goosebumps, I get tears in my eyes because I'm listening to these people share how, how they've changed. So it's, it's amazing, it attracts more people to us, but then it also fills up my cup too. So that's that's one of my favorite things I do on my show.

Speaker 1:

I love that. That's absolutely amazing. So you and I are super close friends. We have been for several for for a while now. We walk through relationship stuff together. You spoke at create um. I host in Atlanta the number one faith-based entrepreneur conference. You did an amazing job talking about attachment theory. Let's break down for everybody that's here that may not know. You break down attachment theory what it actually is and what the different types are it actually is and what the different types are.

Speaker 2:

So attachment theory is a roadmap to understand how you show up in relationships and why you are attracted to the people you are attracted to. And once we can understand our own unique attachment style, things really start to make sense in our relationships of why we do what we do, why we are repeating the patterns that we're repeating. So I always tell people that understanding your attachment style is like the missing piece to the dating puzzle and relationship puzzle. Even if you're in a marriage, understanding this can dramatically improve your marriage. So it started out in the 1950s John Bowlby, mary Ainsworth originally researching parent-child relationships, and then later it was applied to romantic relationships, which is how I apply it in my work.

Speaker 2:

But the thing that you need to know is there are four attachment styles. We have anxious, avoidant, disorganized and secure attachment, and what I want people to realize is that you likely have all of them to some degree, that you may find yourself in more than one category, but there's going to be one. That is your primary way of being in a relationship. So, for example, somebody could be 75% anxious, but they have 25% secure, and that's. You mentioned the quiz at the very beginning.

Speaker 1:

That's what.

Speaker 2:

I love about my quiz is it actually breaks down the percentages. So if you go, take that.

Speaker 1:

Everybody at our conference you put the QR code up. We had everybody at our conference do the do the test while you were actually when you first got up before we did our panel that day. It was the best.

Speaker 2:

Oh, man, You're so, you're so awesome for for getting that all set up and it really is helpful information. And I mean, after I spoke, I had people coming back to the back of the room to talk to me and some some grown men in tears telling me about how this is going to change their relationship. And that's how powerful it is when you really understand it.

Speaker 1:

So so let's talk about. Let's talk about avoidant. We'll hit avoidant, anxious and disorganized and then we'll jump into secure. And then I've got some questions, some questions based off personal experience and some questions based off of just watching relationships and reading books like the Way of the Superior man, and I just finished the four agreements for the third time in the last three or four weeks, Just really learning about how I'm wired as a man and you mentioned it earlier about attraction, how you start attracting the right people or you start attracting different people. So let's break down avoidant and avoidant and anxious. If you want to break those couple down, for me it'd be great.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. With avoidant attachment, this is where we have fear of intimacy and there's a lot of distancing behaviors that can come up. The avoidantly attached person let's say you're going on a date with them and the date goes amazing and you had the best time and you laughed and you felt super close to this person, and then they don't text you for seven days. Right? This is an example of someone where when they get close, they will unconsciously pull away and distance, so they struggle with maintaining intimacy. And there's more I can say.

Speaker 1:

Is that something, morgan, that comes from what they've learned as a child, or some childhood trauma or the way that they were cared for by their parents? Walk us through kind of where these things come from. Because as human beings, you would think that you want to be Like if you have that interaction with somebody on a date, or you spend a weekend together or something like, oh man, this is really good, I want to spend more time with you and you said subconsciously, they literally will not text back or not connect back for a week or so.

Speaker 2:

You always ask the best questions, Ken.

Speaker 1:

You have such a curious mind.

Speaker 2:

I love it. So our attachment style can come from our early childhood experiences and our other adult relational experiences. One theme I've noticed a lot with my clients is early romantic experiences having an impact on your attachment style in your romantic relationships. I love that there's so much research being done because there's books like the book attached with Amir Amir Amir Levine is his name, yeah.

Speaker 2:

He said he used to say, oh, your attachment style is your attachment style, you can't change it, and it came from when you were a child and that was like end of story. But we know that's not true. We know that your attachment style can actually change, whether it's good or bad. You could have really traumatic you know relationship experiences that could cause you to have anxious attachment, even if you were secure most of your life. So what we know is that, yes, your early childhood experiences have a huge impact and subsequent relationships also shape your attachment style.

Speaker 1:

So that's avoidant. Talk to me about anxious attachment, and then we'll do disorganized, and then we'll talk about what each of those can do to move towards being a secure attachment and developing a secure partnership.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I get so excited about this because it's just, it's like my favorite thing ever to talk about. So, okay, Anxious attachment. This is where we have a really hard time receiving. Reassurance is one aspect. So I always tell people it's like your reassurance bucket has holes in it.

Speaker 2:

So, someone could say I love you, I want to be with you, You're the best partner ever, but you're not going to be able to really accept it and you're not feeling that calm stability in the relationship. So this person is maybe they're the one sending you 17 text messages is maybe they're the one sending you 17 text messages asking how your day is going? Do you still love me? They're asking for all kinds of reassurance and they're not able to feel secure in the relationship and, at the core, what we know is it's fear of abandonment, right Like fear of the relationship ending. This person's catastrophizing a lot. Maybe they saw you.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Stop, stop right there. Tell them, because for some people that don't what is catastrophizing me. Okay.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to give an example. Let's say you're dating somebody and you see them on Facebook and they commented on another girl's post and they left a comment like great outfit or something. The anxiously attached person is going to say, oh my gosh, they're interested in this person, they're planning to leave me. This relationship's over. So catastrophizing is where your brain takes that worst case scenario and then just runs with it and just creates an alternate reality.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So here's a question right here for everybody out there who goes oh my God, I do that. What do you do when that happens?

Speaker 2:

The really important thing is to realize that it's happening, because it can be like a freight train once it gets going. So by doing this kind of work you want to catch that kind of thinking as quickly as you can. And then I do something with clients called reality testing. It's a cognitive behavioral intervention where you write down what are the facts, what has actually happened, what do I know to be true. So just pausing, slowing down, checking in with reality and then doing anything that you can to self-soothe and have compassion for that anxious part of your brain. Maybe as a child you had to show up that way in order to survive and to have any kind of connection. So having that love and compassion instead of judgment, and then asking yourself what would, what would secure me do instead? So I'm sure we'll talk more about that, but yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

So, anyway, finish on um anxious, yeah. So with disorganized attachment, we'll definitely disorganize so with disorganized attachment.

Speaker 2:

This is a pendulum swing between avoidant and anxious, so any given moment could even be within the same day. You're showing up with anxious strategies and then you're showing up with avoidant strategies and with this attachment style it is emotionally exhausting and if you are the person dating the person with that attachment style, you just don't know if they're in or out from one day to the next.

Speaker 1:

And it makes it.

Speaker 2:

It makes it really hard to maintain a relationship.

Speaker 1:

So, if you're with someone who has basically both the avoidant and the anxious, walk us through what that process looks like for someone who's dating. Because obviously when you date somebody, at first everything's amazing. It's awesome and she's dressed up, and he's dressed up and everything's great. And then over time you start to realize, oh, this is not what I thought it was or they are disorganized.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes they're avoidant and sometimes they're anxious, and I don't know if they're all in or all out. It's kind of hard for me to figure out what to do. What do you say to someone who's in a relationship with someone who has anxious and avoidant tendencies?

Speaker 2:

First off, I would have a lot of compassion for you because I know how confusing it is and I think that it can be very emotionally draining to date someone like that. So I would have a lot of compassion. And then I think there needs to be really open, honest, direct conversations where you're giving feedback about hey, I feel very confused in this relationship with you saying I've noticed you've said this and that I've noticed your behaviors were this. These things are not matching up. Can you help me understand? Where are you at? And really the question I have in that scenario is this does that person have the emotional capacity to become securely attached while still dating you? And the reality I mean, yeah, the reality is it's very hard for someone with disorganized specifically because disorganized is a 5% of the population and it's a response to childhood trauma and it can be very ingrained, so it'd be very hard to move to secure attachment while in a relationship.

Speaker 1:

So I used to be a pretty heavy, anxious attachment person, done a lot of work over the past two and a half years, and now it's it's very little and I've learned a lot of things for me to do in specific relationships and how to create and set boundaries and those kinds of things. What do you say to someone who is an anxious attachment, who is because anxious and avoid and avoidant are drawn, kind of drawn?

Speaker 1:

to each other, like flies to a light or, you know, like moths to a flame, like they're drawn to each other. What do you say to the person who's anxious, that is, dating someone who is avoidant, who may be all in one minute and the next minute they're like I need space, no. And then when you create space, they're wanting you back in their life. What does that look like for somebody who might be or might have an anxious attachment?

Speaker 2:

Oh, we could be here for four hours, but.

Speaker 1:

I'll give you a couple of things.

Speaker 2:

I'll give you some gems on this. I think the number one thing I would say is you have to become aware when you are giving away your energy to the relationship, when instead, you should be giving your energy to yourself, because with anxious attachment, you're very good at being highly attuned and focusing on your partner and giving the relationship all of your energy. So one of the best things you can do is learn to recognize when you're doing that and intentionally give your energy back to yourself. So this looks like go spend time with your friends, go spend time with your family, do your daily non-negotiable routines. Fill up your cup first. So start giving your energy back to yourself and then, honestly, one of the best things you can do is learn how to self-soothe, because with anxious attachment, a lot of times we're looking for someone else to soothe our emotions, so we're outsourcing our soothing.

Speaker 1:

It's good, it's good.

Speaker 2:

And that really disempowers us.

Speaker 1:

And so what are the things they can do to self-soothe Like? What are some of the exercises or modalities they can use to be able to do that?

Speaker 2:

I'm curious what, what you do, Ken, what?

Speaker 1:

would be. What are your?

Speaker 2:

I'm like, I'm sure you like I don't know with like a sledgehammer or something.

Speaker 1:

Um, I love to go to the gym. Okay, I mean, there's been times, like I would say, over the past couple years, when I get hit hard with something. I literally will walk downstairs, I'll make a pre-workout and I will go get on my Peloton for at least 30 minutes. Or I will get on my Peloton and I'll go to Planet Fitness and I'll lift Because I want to sweat, I want to take my mind off of it, you want to change your state.

Speaker 1:

Exactly right, as Tony Robbins talks all the time about changing state For me too. I've got a big Bluetooth speaker You've heard me say this before by my Peloton I crank it and I do country music rides and I'm just singing and I'm going and I'm I just totally shut off that side. So that is something in the past, that that I've, that I've done, and I think the more that you do this and I know I'm interviewing you, you're not interviewing me but I think the more that I've done that and I've learned to lean into okay, I know this is the way I'm wired. I've done a lot of work. I've done a lot of healing.

Speaker 1:

I'm not necessarily an anxious attachment, just barely now, man, this is okay for me to be able to do this, because I think a lot of times, when you talked about the emotions and I'm going to ask you this question, we can answer this in just a second I would think that the people that are like you and I, who are people, people who love to help, people who love to serve, people who love to give, I would think the majority of those people would be anxious attachment. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

It's a very, very interesting observation and I can tell you that, yes, there is a high correlation between people who are in helping professions.

Speaker 1:

even think about nurses, doctors, you know people who are helping people.

Speaker 2:

There's a high correlation with anxious attachment style Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

So soothing. I know, for me it's, it's I just I want to work out, I want to sweat, I want to move my body, change my state, as Tony Robbins would say. What are some other things that you've seen? Or some of the other things that you teach your clients to be able to do?

Speaker 2:

Well, you gave a great example here and I want to point something out. You know what it is. You people actually know what it is. So, even more important than me giving you some examples, what I want you to do everybody is to come up with what that plan is, and you have to be willing to experiment. So, for some people, it might be journaling, it might be the gym, it might be a hot bath, it might be blasting the music driving down a dirt road, whatever it is, know what your things are, have them ready to go in advance. I think about it like the fire drills. You know, you know, okay, where's the escape path.

Speaker 2:

You have to know what are the things you're going to do to self-soothe and be aware of them before you need them and be willing to spend time getting curious about it. Try different things out and see what works for you.

Speaker 1:

So for me in in this whole process of learning about attachment styles and that's this was even probably about halfway through kind of my healing journey over the past two and a half to three years learning about this is excuse me, as an entrepreneur, I don't have time to work. I don't have time for a process Like I got stuff I want to do. I'm 55 years old. I want to be in a relationship. This is what I want. I want to do this in my business. I want to do this in my faith. I want my health to look like this, like I'm boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay, let's go get it done. What do you say? Cause there's a lot of entrepreneurs that listen to this podcast that are, like man, I have some anxious tendencies. What do you say to them about being comfortable with the process and just seeing that through?

Speaker 2:

We have a mutual friend, ken, and I remember having this conversation with her and and realizing, you know, kind of the same thing of, like she's ready for a relationship, she wants it to happen now, and and I was able to say, hey, like give me, give me 12 weeks, okay, and and then the other thing I need you to to be willing to do is to create space and time for this and to acknowledge that it's probably going to be pretty painful, and it's that whole awareness of would you rather have a lifetime of suffering where you're not not getting what, what you?

Speaker 2:

want are you willing to go through some temporary pain? Yeah, and once, once I can get people's buy-in to that, I know that they're they're going to be okay, and if you can say, hey, you need to schedule your healing time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Just like, just like you would schedule a meeting with a potential client.

Speaker 1:

It's not any different. Your mental health and your emotional health it's not any different than the gym. I mean I've lost 85 pounds. I mean I know what it takes. I mean I, this morning in the gym I was I PR it on my chest press, my incline chest press. Today I was like I was so freaking pumped. I sent it to my group of guys Brian Covey and Vic Keller and Gary Brecca and Randy Garn and Brent Gove. I sent him a, I sent him a picture and I was like come get you some fellas, like I was fired up man At the gym.

Speaker 1:

I took a picture. I'm like y'all come get you some.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you make space for it, you prioritize it you have to.

Speaker 1:

You have to make space for this. I I. It's funny because when we were at create this year, with all the people that were there, it was funny. Some of the people are like I've never heard this before. I don't even know what this is. This isn't been something that I've been. This information is not something I've been privy to in the past. So if they're in that position and they're just hearing about this for the first time, what do they need to do? Obviously, your, your quiz.

Speaker 1:

We'll put this in the show notes and we'll drop it in all the all the channels so for them to go check the do be able to do the. It's two minutes, two minute quiz. We'll drop that in there for them to be able to check that out. Where do they start? Like, what's a what's a great starting point for them.

Speaker 2:

I think it's this awareness I was actually thinking about this today and I really wish this was something that everyone knew which is that we have to have so much compassion and love for ourselves and realizing that maybe you've been in a lot of unhealthy relationships, maybe you've been through divorce or you've had toxic experiences. No matter what, it is Okay. I, I would want you to forgive yourself for that and and to realize that you, you were so impacted by your relational experiences that that you've had, and so many of them were out of your control, especially your parents, right and and and that wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault that you developed an anxious attachment style or avoid an attachment style, or disorganized. None of that was your fault, and we and we want to have so much compassion for you and just so much love.

Speaker 2:

And if you could talk to that five-year-old kid version of you that was going through that relational trauma, what would you want them to know? You would want them to know hey, you're so worthy of love, you're so worthy of relationships that feel good, and even though it's not your fault, it happened. Now it's your responsibility to decide as a healthy adult. No more of this BS. I am having healthy, secure relationships that add value to my life, because I'm deserving of it and I'm going to do whatever work I have to do to get there.

Speaker 1:

So what would you say to someone who's because the anxious and attack and avoidant, they're drawn to each other? What would you say to a couple that's because the anxious and avoidant, they're drawn to each other? What would you say to a couple that's in, one's anxious and one's avoidant and they're concerned about the long-term, because you know, long-term, if you're anxious and attachment, it's just, it's unhealthy. But what should the goal be? If you're in, because everybody that's listening to this podcast, you're going to be a percentage of each one. One's going to be a percentage of one, one's going to be a percentage of the other. What's the goal, what's the process for them to be able to move into secure attachment?

Speaker 2:

I think I would give them lots of hope and I would want them to know that, no matter what your relationship has been, you can co-create secure attachment, and I use that word co-create. If one of you decides to show up secure and the other one doesn't, that's not. I mean it could help a little bit, but it's really going to take both people deciding. I want to learn how to show up securely attached as an individual and I want to learn how to co-create it with my partner as well. So it's really that commitment of this is a priority. Let's do the healing work we need to and honestly, I think it's easier than people think. It is honestly Like when we can with couples, when you can get to some of those core woundings, because it's not about the dishes, it's not about who's doing the dishes right?

Speaker 2:

We know that. But when we can get to the core woundings and really work through those, we can actually create secure attachment with people pretty quickly. So yeah, I would just give them a lot of hope and know that it's always possible to have a healthy relationship. And specifically for my entrepreneurs who are listening, what I see a lot is you get too avoidantly attached people who are together yeah, because they're like we're both entrepreneurs and we're focusing on our business and we're so independent.

Speaker 2:

And and then what do you have? You have a very lonely relationship that looks really successful and not not a lot of intimacy.

Speaker 1:

You said something is very good right there. It looks very successful from the outside. They look and go, wow, look at her, she's this, and look at him, he's this. And man, I bet they're just having the greatest time ever. But on the inside, you said it's super lonely.

Speaker 2:

Lonely.

Speaker 1:

So really, with everything that I've learned and what I'm hearing you saying here, it's almost better for the anxious and the avoidant to be together and to be able to learn how to move and co-create into a secure relationship.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely and obviously I always think of it as a spectrum, right, if there's somebody who has some secure attachment and they've done some work on themselves, that's going to help their relationship. So if we've got somebody who's at like 25% anxious and 75% secure secure and then we've got a 50 percent avoidance and 50 percent secure, like, ultimately, the more secure, the easier it's going to be. However, it's not impossible if we have two people who say, well, hey, I know I'm this and I know that I'm this, and they both decide I want to move to secure attachment and I want to create a relationship that feels good to both of us.

Speaker 2:

You can absolutely do it. I've seen it so many times.

Speaker 1:

What would you say to someone who's in a relationship and they're the, they're the one that's putting forth the effort, and the other person in the relationship, the other partner, says I want to, but then the effort? Because one of the things that I just I've read and I put on my my social media the last couple of months is is behavior is greater than words. What would you say to someone who is in a relationship and the partner and I would say probably use the word earlier doesn't have the capacity to show up? What does? What does that conversation look like?

Speaker 2:

show up. What does that conversation look like? Well, this is one of my favorite sayings I talk about with my community you can't water plastic plants. If something doesn't have capacity to grow, you can't give your energy to it. So, at a certain point, if you have exhausted yourself, if you have had couples therapy I mean if you are really working and showing up and the other person is still not growing, you do have to ask yourself at what point am I watering a plastic plant? Am I giving my energy to something that simply cannot grow, not because it's bad, but because it doesn't have capacity to? I think that's a really, really important question. I will say, though, I think a lot of us are scared of being vulnerable, we are scared of being the ones to model the work and to invest, and we give up too quickly. So, on the other hand, I would say, make sure that you are modeling and you're learning how to show up secure, and your, your partner will will learn from you over time.

Speaker 1:

Right, I love, I absolutely love that.

Speaker 2:

So if they're growing, even if it's small, if they're growing right, Keep watering it.

Speaker 1:

Right, I love that you can't water plastic plants.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

That will be on my social media today and tomorrow. I promise you that, because that is really, really, really good. What would you say to someone who's in that situation and they've been watering plastic plants? What would you say to them? As far as extending grace to the person that just doesn't have the capacity, that's why I love that metaphor so much because it's not like.

Speaker 2:

you know. You don't go like, oh, what a terrible plant or something. You just go. Well, yeah, of course it can't grow. You know, it's a plastic one and I think where some people are on their healing journeys, they just don't have capacity to grow yet. Maybe they will in the future. But I think being able to know that that has nothing to do with you or your worthiness, it's not about you. If we have real compassion and love for them, we understand that where they are they can't meet us where we are at, and it's actually hurtful to try to keep expecting them to because they're simply not able to.

Speaker 2:

So when we really love them and care for them, we give them that grace and we say I hope that you go on and you find the kind of relationship that works for you or that you find the kind of healing that that feels good for you as well.

Speaker 1:

I love that. You know I always really what I've learned in this 55 year journey, right as a, as a, you know, 55 year old man. I've learned, especially in the in being single for the last four years, is the more I focus on me and how I feel, the less I can focus on the person that's in my life at the time and give grace. If I get offended or if I feel hurt or if I feel wounded. It robs my ability to be able to extend grace and to be able to either bring healing to the relationship or even to bring healing to the person I was in a relationship. As I exit that relationship to move forward into a different season that God has for me, yeah, and you've heard this saying.

Speaker 2:

You know rejection is redirection, and realizing that if it's not meant for us, it's just because there's something else that really is meant for us. And you don't want to block your love doorway, right? You want that space actually in your life to be empty so that the right person can come in. You don't want to be blocking what's meant for you and this is such a God thing, isn't it, of getting to that place of grace and surrender. It's hard.

Speaker 1:

It's not easy. This is hard because you and I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago and I see this, I see this around and even in my own heart. Sometimes in the past, when you get hurt or somebody can't show up or the capacity is not there and they're in or out, or in or out, or something happens, what happens in our own heart is we want to villainize them, like, oh, they're bad and they shouldn't have done this. They hurt me, which is where I stopped. I stopped and went whoa, hang on a minute. I'm making this about my offense. I stopped and went whoa, hang on a minute.

Speaker 1:

I'm making this about my offense. I'm making this about the way that they've hurt me or the way they haven't done A, b, c or D for me, or they haven't showed up the way I've showed up for them and really went oh man, I can't be the man God wants me to be with that attitude. I have to be God. I pray for her and I just pray God. I pray your grace on her and I pray God. You do in her heart what you need to do and really I think you can exit gracefully in relationships. But it is not easy.

Speaker 2:

It's a process. You have to get to that place of forgiveness, not only of that person but, forgiveness of yourself, Cause a lot of times that's what we're really mad about. Is we go oh my gosh, I should have known better. And we get so mad at ourselves. So if we haven't forgiven ourselves, then we're going to really struggle with forgiving the other person as well.

Speaker 1:

But it just.

Speaker 2:

I go back to that. I have this thing I talk about return on energy investment R-O-I-E. I always think about, and if you're holding on to all kinds of anger hurt towards somebody from the past, that is not a good use of your energy.

Speaker 1:

It's just not going to get you what you want.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it doesn't help. It doesn't help our heart and it doesn't prepare our heart or our, our energy, for the person that God's like. God's like. I want to send you but I can't send you because your energy and your anger and you're still holding on and harboring, you know, resentment and anger towards somebody who's hurt you Did that hurt you Probably, but there's, there's nothing you can do, holding on to that past relationship because of the hurt. One of the things that I've learned in the past several years and I'm sure that I've been in relationships where I've done wrong the other person has had to go. Man, I'm just going to have grace. I'm just going to offer grace. I'm just going to look at it and go. I'm just going to have empathy. I'm just going to offer grace. I'm just going to look at it and go. I'm just going to say empathy, I'm just, I'm just going to develop a heart of empathy for that individual and I'll never forget at create this year. Um, I don't know if you spoke first or Henry and Taryn spoke first.

Speaker 1:

Henry and Taryn yeah they spoke and then you came up after them. But I remember in their talk cause they're like this perfect couple, right. Talk because they're like this perfect couple, right. But I remember Taryn and they told me this when I first met them a year, year and a half ago, was Taryn always says, if I would have met Henry eight months earlier, I would have messed it up.

Speaker 1:

I would not have been ready. And boy, when I think about that I'm like, wow, god, you're moving. And I love Proverbs. It says a man who finds a wife finds a good thing. And that scripture is literally I used to teach this in my courtship series as a youth pastor. We did a six-week series called God, will you Go With Me? So back when you were 12, you're like, hey, mama go, and so-and-so. Where y'all going? They would make fun of you and you'd laugh like Ken's been on the phone 10 minutes. You know you're doing that and I would do this series every year and it would be based off of this scripture A man who finds a wife finds a good thing. And that scripture in Proverbs literally is as a man is on his path towards God, he's passionate for God, he's chasing Jesus, he wants to fulfill the destiny and purpose God's put in his life.

Speaker 1:

God causes the path of a woman to intersect his path and I used to say this all the time in this series is don't worry about finding Mr or Mrs Wright, Worry about becoming Mr or Mrs Wright.

Speaker 2:

It's so true, and that's the same with my, my relationship, my fiance.

Speaker 1:

I was going to drop that at the very end, anyway, go ahead and go ahead and tell everybody. Cause I was going to say that was my very last thing I was going to talk about.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, I love it, but it's the same for me that if I had met him.

Speaker 2:

If I had met him, even you know, a year earlier, six months earlier, I would not have been ready. And and I know, I know that God is is in that, and that's where that surrender comes from is that trust of okay, you're going to become that version of you and God is going to place that person in your life who can create the kind of relationship that you deserve and that you're worthy of, and you will become the person who can also hold up their end of that too. So I think it's so true we can't get upset in our relationship quote-unquote failures.

Speaker 2:

It's all part of a much bigger plan 100%.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't hurt for you to have a big brother named Ken who gets up on stage and gets on to your guy for not proposing to you yet in front of all those people at the conference, and he's like holy cow. I think we sped the process up, maybe a little bit for you.

Speaker 2:

You know, what's so funny about this is so we've been together for three years and this is the best relationship I've ever been in right, Hopefully and he's just an incredible person, and it was the first time in my life that I didn't feel the timeline pressure. I didn't feel that like, oh, we have to get engaged in order for me to feel secure. We had already created secure attachment and then for him, it was all about lining some things up in his career and as soon as he was ready like the day he was ready he went to the store and did it, and I love that. I love that about him.

Speaker 1:

So I know a little bit about your journey in that, and it's not been an easy journey. Even though you guys have gotten to the point of being in a secure partnership, it still isn't always easy. Can you speak to that?

Speaker 2:

Secure is not perfect. I think sometimes we confuse the two. But with a securely attached relationship, we repair a lot more easily and we grow through conflict. We learn how to grow through conflict. We're on the same team, so even if things come up, we're able to navigate things well, and I think it's just so important to realize that. Of course, there's going to be things that come up, there's going to be moments of doubt or conflict, but it's all about how do you respond to it.

Speaker 1:

Not react?

Speaker 2:

How? How do you both intentionally respond to it? And and then, over time, it just becomes this unshakable, secure attachment.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that. Well, I'm super excited for you, girl. Thank you. Engaged. I can't wait for the wedding. It's going to be amazing.

Speaker 2:

Tell everybody where's the best place to connect with you, dr Morgan. So my podcast, let's Get Vulnerable two episodes a week. If you want to learn more about attachment theory, that is the place. And then I'm also on Instagram at Dr Morgan coaching and we'll put the quiz in the show notes. Make sure you go take the quiz. And then I also have a book, um love magnet. Get off the dating rollercoaster and attract the love you deserve. So if you're a book person, you'll probably really really enjoy that too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I send people to Morgan all the time. By the way, I'm like, listen, you, you need to go get connected with her and and Walt, and not people I'm dating, just people I know that are in that kind of in that space, cause I think it's just you know again, emotional health, relational health, physical health, relational health, physical health those things are super important for us to be able to become in our core five we call it faith, health, relationship, business and finances to be able to become the best version of ourselves in our core five so that we can experience everything that God has for us. Listen, I'm honored, but I'm grateful for your friendship, my friend.

Speaker 2:

I'm grateful for you and the way you serve your community and just knowing your heart and how you genuinely care about every single person that you come into contact with, like I, I'm just blown away by who you are as a person. So thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you're welcome, guys. Thank you for joining us on another episode of as the leader grows. I am your host, ken Jocelyn. Again, dr Morgan Anderson. Go follow her on Instagram. Hit her podcast up Over 5 million downloads. Guys, I don't care where you're at in the relationship game. If you're not in a relationship. You're single. You're in a relationship or you're married or living with your partner. Listen, go find what she's teaching. I promise you it will make a difference, help you move into secure attachment and live the relationship of your dreams. Thanks,